The New Mechanics of Independence with Mark Elzweig

00:00
Charlie Van Derven
Thank you for tuning into another episode of RIA Collective. I'm your host, Charlie Van Derven. I've got a guest today that I'm excited to tap into his knowledge because there's a lot of experience in financial services, and he's kind of a buddy of mine, and it's a new perspective. Right. We've interviewed some breakaway attorneys. We've interviewed some head of RIAs Advisors who have just made that transition. Today, my buddy Mark Elswig is here to talk to us about recruiting in the industry, specifically about the right placements, about what makes advisors successful and happy in their transition. Mark brings a unique background with psychology and social work prior to joining the industry. We're going to tap into how that helps him do his job in finding the right landing spots for advisors who are making the move. Mark Elswig, welcome to RIA Collective, and thank you for being my guest today. 

00:54
Mark Elzweig
Thank you, Charlie. I'm excited to be here. To be here. 

00:58
Charlie Van Derven
In full disclosure, mark and I've been working together for a couple of years at this point, right? 

01:02
Mark Elzweig
Yes. Charlie has helped me dramatically expand my LinkedIn contacts and figure out how to use LinkedIn effectively. So it's been a very good relationship. 

01:14
Charlie Van Derven
Thanks for the plug, man. 

01:18
Mark Elzweig
It's all true. 

01:19
Charlie Van Derven
Now, Mark, you and I are kindred in more than one way, but one way I know is that we enjoy traveling in new places. Just as a background. Mark, you and your wife Nancy, you're cruising around the country, working kind of wherever the breeze may take you. Is that right? 

01:37
Mark Elzweig
We've been having a fantastic year, like, since February. We've been staying four to six weeks in different cities and working remotely. I'm lucky my wife can work remotely as well. So far. Let me think. We've been to Austin, Texas. 

01:52
Charlie Van Derven
Great. 

01:53
Mark Elzweig
Nashville, Tennessee. Charleston, South Carolina. Denver. And right now I'm in Pittsburgh. 

02:01
Charlie Van Derven
Pittsburgh. Why did you pick Pittsburgh? Pittsburgh in November? You'd think that was like a July place you might want to go to? 

02:07
Mark Elzweig
Well, frankly, we're just visiting friends. It's not my ideal place to spend November. I'm more of a sunperson. Luckily, there are some great things to do here. Yesterday we saw a house designed by Frank Lloyd Wright, and it was really quite beautiful. We have a couple of something called the Incline and some art museums lined up for later in the week, so I think it should be really fun. 

02:35
Charlie Van Derven
Make sure you get that if I'm pronouncing it right. Promanti brothers sandwich. 

02:40
Mark Elzweig
All right, well, I'm going to remember that. 

02:42
Charlie Van Derven
Got to go check that out. 

02:43
Mark Elzweig
I'll have to check it out. It's been a fun experience working remotely, and I'm really glad we're able to do it. 

02:51
Charlie Van Derven
It's just one of the great benefits of all the technology we have to surround ourselves with now. And we did it with COVID right? Bought the travel trailer, hit the road for ten months, and now I'm cruising . I was in Fort Lauderdale with my camper last week at Joe Lucas Magellan Vision 2023. That was awesome. I love it. I'm working from home now, so I got to get out to broaden things . 

03:17
Mark Elzweig
It's fun. We're not drivers. We like to fly to a different city and then stay there for a while. The experience of being able to live in different places and to be able to stay there long enough to get a sense of kind of what it's about, what it would be like to live there it's been really fun. I've met some really interesting people, too. 

03:38
Charlie Van Derven
I'm sure you have. Pittsburgh is awesome, man. I love Pittsburgh. It's been a couple of years, and I was there on a firm that brought me in to do some speaking and some coaching, so they set me up with, like, Penguins tickets. 

03:53
Mark Elzweig
Oh, wow. 

03:54
Charlie Van Derven
It was pretty good. It was pretty good. Very cool, Mark. Well, listen, I want to dive in before we get into the recruiting piece of it, right? You come out of a psychology and social work background. 

04:09
Mark Elzweig
Yes, I do. 

04:09
Charlie Van Derven
It's a little different than most of the people in the industry who are coming into this industry with a finance degree or something, let's say. I would say psychology and social work are made more of the softer, skill piece of things. I've got my guesses as to how that helps you today, but how did that prepare you for a world in financial services? 

04:34
Mark Elzweig
It was actually kind of an accident. My father had an employment agency, and each of my siblings have recruiting firms, so I came from, like, a recruiting family, but I started out in social work, and the thing that I learned from social work is really how to help people make difficult decisions. That's what I found that I really like doing, listening to what they really want, reviewing with them the pros and cons of different choices. I wasn't aware when I was a social worker that I would ultimately come back into the kind of business that my family does. It's really helped me a lot, and I find, again, helping people evaluate things and make difficult decisions is really what I like doing in life. I feel it was kind of an unpredictable path or a path I didn't foresee, rather, but it kind of worked out very well for me in that sense. 

05:37
Charlie Van Derven
It's very cool. I think that those might be the best paths. Right. The ones that happen by nature as opposed to being forced. I think that's great. I grew up my mom was a social worker, in fact. Yeah. She got her bachelor's in social work the same year I graduated from high school. It was something that she went back to school for, went and got her master's degree, and let's say her second career was social work. Yeah, something that's kind of near and dear right now. 

06:09
Mark Elzweig
I see especially why it resonates with you. My background in that sense has really helped me a lot and also as the industry has become a lot more complex than it was when I started 30 some odd years ago. They were basically wirehouses and regional firms and that was it. Now opportunity set for advisors is a lot broader and a lot more varied. I find that many of the skills that I learned as a social worker have really fit in much better or fit in especially well because there's a complex landscape that I can help people evaluate well. 

06:50
Charlie Van Derven
And I love that. Right. Because as the complexity grows, so does the value for a person in your position and service to the industry. 

06:58
Mark Elzweig
Right, exactly. 

06:59
Charlie Van Derven
There are so many options nowadays and I've been for a little over two decades, but same. You and I have had this opportunity to watch advisors, really, that migration to an independent landscape. We've been able to kind of you closer to it than me, but we've been able to witness that really speed up in the last, probably ten years, but it's really, it's, it's reached a fever pitch for a number of reasons. You wrote an article, Mark, about why people are successful. Think advisor article. How long ago was that? 

07:35
Mark Elzweig
It was just a couple of months ago, actually. That was earlier this year. I was just thinking about a lot of the teams and advisors that I worked with, what the characteristics were of people who had successful, made successful moves and transitioned their accounts properly. 

07:54
Charlie Van Derven
In, in the episodes we published of RIA Collective and the advisors I get to talk with, I think I've got, I've narrowed down five reasons that people make that transition. That's a different conversation. What is it that helps somebody make that transition successfully? 

08:10
Mark Elzweig
I would say the first and primary attribute that someone has to have, they have to have been able to set up their business so that clients see them as irreplaceable. Clients see them as you might think if you're watching a symphony, you're looking at the conductor of the orchestra. The firm is kind of analogous to the musicians in the orchestra pit. They're there, they're valuable, but they're kind of blurrying in the background. Those people who've been able to set up their business so that clients rather recognize their value in terms of no, they're the ones setting up the customized financial plan. They're the ones setting up the particular investment program. Advisors who have been successful in doing that, those people are able to move their businesses successfully no matter what. That's one very attribute of analogy, great analogy. 

09:18
Charlie Van Derven
We key on a lot, making sure that you're protecting the personal brand even if you're representing a large brand, you are the brand, you're the individual that people are working with. I think those go exactly pretty much hand in hand. 

09:31
Mark Elzweig
Exactly. I did have an experience with thinking about one team a couple of years ago that I placed, and they went from one wirehouse to another. When they went to the warehouse, they joined two weeks after they joined, had like, a terrible scandal. They were like, in the newspapers in a really negative way for a long time. This was their second week that they were there, and obviously I felt terrible. However, they brought over all their accounts, and the reason they were able to transition their clients is because their clients recognized that they were the ones who were providing them with value, and they had very close relationships with their clients. I kind of contrast that to someone I knew who was as a young advisor. The way he opened his accounts, he was calling from a different wirehouse, and he would tell people, listen, these are the three reasons why I'm with the best firm in the business, and that's why you should open an account with me. 

10:37
Mark Elzweig
Now, when that particular advisor made a move several years later, that was a mess. He was kind of I wouldn't say he was destroyed. That's too strong a word. He did lose a lot of clients, and the reason he lost a lot of accounts is because he was subtly conditioning his clients and prospects to view him as a representative of the firm. You never want that because then you're replaceable. He learned from that experience, but it all comes back to basic positioning with clients. That's something, as an advisor, you have to do from the very beginning of your business, and you have to do every day in a subtle way of your working life. Make sure the clients understand that you're the p*** person, you're the person who's helping them achieve their goals, and you're the person who's making it happen. So that's trait one. 

11:36
Mark Elzweig
That's the most important thing. 

11:38
Charlie Van Derven
Well, what if we've got an adviser, Mark, who's been at a firm for seven years? They're listening to our recording right now. 

11:46
Mark Elzweig
Right. 

11:47
Charlie Van Derven
They have not done an effective job, but they know they need to change. They know, for whatever reason, they need a different path in their career. What's your suggestion there? There an amount of time they should be working on that relationship. Any thoughts behind that? If they've been touting the firm for a long time, how do they start to move away from that? 

12:08
Mark Elzweig
Right. I think the first thing they should do prior to making the move is try to rebrand themselves, try in a subtle way to make clients understand that of course you with a good firm. If it wasn't a good firm, you wouldn't be there. The firm offers a multiplicity of choices and they're the ones who are basically doing the customized financial planning, picking the investments. I would say the first step is not to suddenly move, but to try to rebrand themselves, even if it takes six months or a year, but stay in place, rebrand themselves where they are. Once they feel confident in that, then they can start to explore their options. 

12:58
Charlie Van Derven
I completely agree. 612, 18 months, whatever that is when you're ready to move. Twelve and 18 months might feel like a long time, but if there's a difference between retaining 80% and 50% of your assets, I think it's worth that investment. 

13:13
Mark Elzweig
I agree. I agree. Yes. 

13:16
Charlie Van Derven
Tell us more about traits of those advisors who have made that move successfully in the past. 

13:22
Mark Elzweig
The second thing that they're able to do, they're able to show the client why the move is in their best interest. That comes out of the due diligence process because that's another step that when you're considering, when an adviser is considering other firms, they need to spend a lot of time and they should never rush. They need to be very thorough, but they need to spend a lot of time scrutinizing the platform of a prospective firm, seeing what's on the menu, what the cost of different products and services. Are talking with advisers that have a similar style of business to them at that firm and kind of cross referencing their conversations with product specialists. The advisors who moved successfully didn't rush their due diligence and were very thorough. Once you feel that this, that you're choosing, that you've chosen a firm that's going to better for your clients, then you have kind of ammunition in terms of being able to get them excited when you move. 

14:31
Mark Elzweig
You can say that the firm that you've chosen, that you're going to be able to have better lending, more private banking services, whatever your interest is. You have to show the client why it's going to better for them and why that was influential, if not paramount in your choice. Sometimes it can even be things like having more investment freedom to service them better. Yeah. For example, there's one wirehouse where there's kind of relentless pressure to do securities based lending. The branch manager must have, every advisor have at least two accounts that are signed up for securities based loans. The clients don't have to use the credit line, but it has to be in place. Some advisors feel that especially in a rising interest, an environment of rising interest rates, that's detrimental to the client. I place someone earlier this year out of that wirehouse, he was able to tell them very truthfully there's nothing wrong with that firm. 

15:44
Mark Elzweig
I've been under relentless pressure to offer you these lending services, whether they're appropriate or not. I don't think that's something I want to do. I needed to be in a place that was more laze fair so I would be more comfortable and have more freedom as your advisor to service you better. That really was what was motivating him. So that's the second thing. You have to show clients why your move is better for them. 

16:20
Charlie Van Derven
I love that. I've watched advisors make that move and some of them coaching clients. We've got to work on the messaging. The messaging always comes back to their responsibility, to the client. 

16:34
Mark Elzweig
Right. I'm glad you're doing that because I always do that, too. Anyone I work with before they move, we always have a conversation about how they're going to sell that to their clients. 

16:47
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah. 

16:48
Mark Elzweig
How they're going to position it. That's a very important that's a very important thing. 

16:54
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah. 

16:54
Mark Elzweig
So that's a very important thing. 

16:56
Charlie Van Derven
Lean on that fiduciary responsibility and that messaging, by all means. 

17:00
Mark Elzweig
Yes, exactly. The other thing is that people who move successfully are always the due diligence I alluded to earlier. That's, of course, really important to enable an advisor to make the right choice. But the other thing is they're thorough. They're thorough in other ways. So, for example, if an advisor is making a move, it's a very different move if you're coming from a protocol versus a non protocol firm. You need to have advisors who move successfully. They've always had conversations with the legal department. They know exactly what they can do and what they can't do. They've always had several in depth conversations, if not meetings, with people on the transition team. They know exactly what the mechanics of the transition is. That's a very important thing as well. Being thorough in that way, being thorough, and they also know, especially you want to always play by the rules. 

18:11
Mark Elzweig
It's a basic thing that you can't discuss your move in advance with any clients and you can't take any information that a firm would consider to be non public, proprietary information. It's very important that you met an advisor stay within the guidelines. That's another basic ingredient of a successful move, for sure. 

18:39
Charlie Van Derven
We've got, of course, Mark, I think maybe we're doing Interview 20 or 21 right now of RIA Collective. Twelve or 13 are published. So we got some in the base. One really great resource. I'd love to connect the two of you, if you don't already know him, is Corey Cup for something? 

18:57
Mark Elzweig
I'd love to be connected with him because I did have a conversation with him once. I'm about to listen to the podcast. It's in my queue. But, yes, I would love to chat with him because someone like that could be very helpful. It's very important for even if an advisor is moving from a protocol firm, which is a lot easier, it means you really just have to adhere to some basic rules and you have a legal issue, it's still helpful to have your own attorney just to answer some other questions. Someone like Corey, I'm sure, could be very helpful. 

19:35
Charlie Van Derven
Corey is great, and of course, he's offered to be a resource to any of the listeners of the podcast. If you haven't listened to Cory Cup for Mark, for you, but all of our listeners also, if you haven't listened, he's a great dude, too. He's not only trying to move himself and the advisors he represent for, he's trying to move the planet forward with a lot of his actions. 

19:54
Mark Elzweig
That's nice. 

19:55
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah, he's a really good guy. By all means and any other interviews that look interesting. Of course, I think everybody to this point has said, sure, I'll be a resource. Lots of people to chat with in being thorough before you make decisions. 

20:10
Mark Elzweig
Absolutely. Of course, I'd be happy to be a resource to any of your listeners as well who have any questions about the mechanics of either choosing a firm or making a move. I'm sure I could help people with those kind of questions. 

20:24
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah. Before we wrap, I'll get all your contact information on the recorder so that. 

20:28
Mark Elzweig
They know where thank you, Charlie. 

20:30
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah, of course, Mark. Listen, I love that you're willing to do that. Right. Because it's a scary move, and a lot of times those captive environments they want to scare you into, I had a conversation this morning, Mark. I mean, literally, we're recording this the week of Thanksgiving right now, so it'll be about the first of the year before it publishes. I had a conversation this morning with a group of advisors, team of two, that they're at a warehouse and they're really examining what their future looks like. We almost have to talk in code talk because our conversation is at their office. 

21:13
Mark Elzweig
Right, right. 

21:18
Charlie Van Derven
It's amazing. Just by listening here and tapping into the resources that are available from this podcast and of course, there's lots of others, I think they listen to me because I've been a coach of theirs for a while. The amount of resources that we're making available for advisers, making that move to independence. Mark, thank you for being on that list. It's having an impact. I feel awesome about it. 

21:45
Mark Elzweig
Sure. 

21:46
Charlie Van Derven
Very cool. Anything else on that list of the advisors that you've seen make that move successfully? 

21:53
Mark Elzweig
Well, yes, the last thing I would say is that the advisors who move successfully accept imperfection. What I mean by that is no move will be flawless. There's a lot of moving parts. There are always one or two things that just aren't going to go 100% right, and you have to accept that. The ones who were the most successful were able just to kind of just, like, let it roll off their back. They just realized that they had an objective in mind, they were overall, the move was successful in helping them achieve their objectives and if a couple of things were only 100%, that was okay. I think that was another trait of people who've had successful moves, much. 

22:46
Charlie Van Derven
Like hiring, and we've done a lot of that over the years. Much like hiring, the day you interview that person is the best they're going to be. Now, you can increase knowledge and all everything else, but as far as who they are, that's the best representation you're ever going to get. The same I would believe, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but when an advisor sits down with a prospective firm and meets with that team, that would help them transition as they're kicking tires and trying to make the decisions, that's in large part the best they're going to get from that firm. The firm putting their best foot forward in hopes to attract. Now, my point in all this, Mark, I don't know if I know a single transition that someone said I got everything that they told me I was going to get. 

23:37
Charlie Van Derven
Now I know that they told me I'd get this one thing and it was a variant of that. Sometimes the picture that is painted by the firm isn't exactly the situation that an advisor lands in. 

23:51
Mark Elzweig
Right, I think that's true. I think the way to ameliorate that is you want to get key terms of your deal in writing, you may want to show them to an attorney and as much as possible you want to cross check a lot of your impressions with advisors who are currently working at that firm. Those advisors don't need to be in the branch or the location that you're contemplating going to like, if you do bond business, they could be in another state, but you want to have, like, a nitty gritty conversation. With them. And you about doing bond business. You also want to test drive their computers and their workstations to see exactly how you do it. But I agree. Sometimes I think people I luckily haven't had problems with firms intentionally misrepresenting things, but I just mean that in the transition itself, sometimes they're like paperwork or clerical things that just go awry and that just life. 

25:01
Mark Elzweig
As I often say, utopia in Greek means no place. 

25:07
Charlie Van Derven
I was nowhere. That's a good analogy. 

25:11
Mark Elzweig
I found that a very helpful model over the years. 

25:15
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah. I don't mean to say that people are duping people into making a decision that certainly isn't, but as they lay out the roadmap of transition, they're laying out here's the ideal roadmap of transition. Ideal is likely not going to happen. So you've got to it your point. You've got to be flexible and be able to roll with the punches to some degree. 

25:36
Mark Elzweig
Absolutely right. Absolutely right. That's what I found, Mark. 

25:40
Charlie Van Derven
I found a great white paper, if you will, downloadable piece that you had put together at one point. Maybe I should have asked about that before I asked about the article. Happyfinancialadvisors.com, which actually is a great domain name. Dang, man. 

25:58
Mark Elzweig
Thank you. 

25:59
Charlie Van Derven
How does someone get happyfinancial Advisors.com? What a great domain name. The fun we could have with that. You wrote a white paper that's all about the path to success and happiness. One of the things that stood out for me there is that there's key reasons that advisers are not happy. Again, maybe I should have brought this up before the article. Maybe we should have set the stage, the unhappy before went to the successful. Maybe we can flip it and we can reverse it in postproduction. We're not really going to do that. But Mark, what makes a person move? Why is someone unhappy that they're looking at that transition? 

26:40
Mark Elzweig
Well, I think in terms of people typically move to resolve a problem. There's usually something going there's something going kind of wrong and they move to resolve the problem. In terms of happiness, I mean, what I did with that white paper, which was fun, I like to read about psychology anyway, so I read like a couple of books in a field of psychology called positive psychology, which is really about how people it's not about rectifying character or personality flaws. It's really about how regular people can function at an optimal level and be happier. One thing that works against people's happiness is a sense of control. Now, if you're at a big firm and every year they change their payout because they feel like it that's detrimental to someone's sense of control and someone's happiness and even some things like that are a very big motivator for people to go independent. 

27:46
Mark Elzweig
To whatever extent you can control your environment in the sense of making being a decision maker in terms of what your financial and investment program is, which kind of clients you have, that how you're going to organize your team. Having a sense of control and a sense of purpose, those are two things that are very happiness enhancing activities. The third thing, which comes out of something called flow, which is like a that was a really interesting notion. Flow means that what you're doing is you are taking a task that's slightly that's kind of a little beyond you. It's hard, it's difficult, it's challenging, and you're throwing yourself into it with total focus. You don't have one eyeball on your email because if you do that, you'll never get into that flow state. Once you work as hard as you can with great focus, it produces a tremendous sense of happiness. 

28:49
Mark Elzweig
You lose sense of your sense of time, your sense of self, your sense of everything. If you can do things to constantly challenge yourself. Meaning. It could be learning more about being an advisor, about investments, about behavioral psychology as it applies, as you can apply it to investors in whatever way it can be a prospecting program that you undertake when you're pushing your limits and you're focused on getting better and increasing your sense of mastery and competence, that's a happiness producing activity. The guy who came up with a concept, he basically says, sitting on a beach, having a cocktail, that might be okay for a bit, but it's really a formula for boredom. That's not happiness. Happiness is challenging yourself and engaging in activities that give us an increasing sense and enhanced sense of mastery. I found that an amazing insight. He's saying, don't sit and watch a concert all the time. 

30:01
Mark Elzweig
Learn to play an instrument. Get better and better, get a little better every day. That's what's going to make you happy. It's right in front of us, and it's available to everyone. I found that a very interesting and empowering notion, but I think it's one that advisers can apply to their business. 

30:23
Charlie Van Derven
I agree with you. There's so much to learn. There's so many options in the industry, and I think to our point is we began the conversation as you and I have had a chance to watch this now for two or three decades, and AI transcription to independence is just speeding up. 

30:41
Mark Elzweig
It's speeding up dramatically. Dramatically. 

30:44
Charlie Van Derven
Did a presentation on Friday, and so I did a little research. I learned there's 612,000 registered reps in the country. That's FINRA's number in 2021. Do you know that number? Some of it by retirement, of course, but that number continues to decrease every single year, Mark, and the number of SEC registered IARs is increasing dramatically to the point where I think we've got 65,000 in the country now, so. 

31:10
Mark Elzweig
Right, and one reason for that is well, I think there are a couple of reasons. One reason is once you're independent, you have much more of a sense of control, I mean, of your life. I mean, I myself, if I decide I want to spend a little more time in the pool in the morning, I can commit a half an hour later since I don't have a boss to bother me about it. I think even small things like that can add to our sense of happiness. The other reason, though, is I think that well, the RIA model is appealing because it's kind of fiduciary oriented, and more advisors want to feel most advisors, I would say, want to feel that they have a fiduciary mindset when they approach and deal with clients. Also the mechanics of independence have changed. That right now it's easier and more lucrative to go independent than it ever was. 

32:10
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah, no doubt. 

32:12
Mark Elzweig
That's in terms of the kinds of resources that are available, the kinds of recruiting deals you can get, there are a lot off the beaten path monetization opportunities. So instead of. In the beginning, where I'm sure you remember, Charlie, the people that went independent were those people who were being browbeaten and pushed out of the wirehouses. They were the lower producers. The people who are going independent now are some of the best people in the business. They're the absolute top performers. There's a whole cadre now of new emerging independent like of these turnkey RIAs that cater to just those kinds of high end people. I think the movement independence, I can feel in the last year that it's accelerated. I think that's where things are going. 

33:03
Charlie Van Derven
I think so too, and I'm happy to be a part of it. I really, truly believe that in order to be a true fiduciary and that there's a lot of weight with that word, and I think it's thrown around a lot. If you can take the bias out of a relationship like an RIA so straight, fee based, and I think that's the best place for someone who wants to represent that word with true integrity. 

33:27
Mark Elzweig
Yeah, I think it's a very appealing model for many people. 

33:32
Charlie Van Derven
Marty, you're a great guy, and I appreciate our friendship and you working with our team at Social Advisors and our ability to get to know each other over the last couple of years. If anybody wants to tap into your knowledge and experience in the industry, what's the best way for them to reach out to you? 

33:51
Mark Elzweig
They can either just go on to my LinkedIn profile or email me via my website, or my phone number is right there, whatever is good for them. I'm really I love talking with people. I guess that's why I'm in this business. I'd be delighted if people would like to reach out for me, to me rather just for information. I'd be delighted to chat and be as helpful as I can. 

34:19
Charlie Van Derven
Of course I've got happyfinancialadvisors.com, but is it markelswig.com correct. 

34:25
Mark Elzweig
It's really just lswag at lswag, so it's not a tough one, but el Zweig at lswag. Well, lswag atlswag.com is my email. My website is just lswag. 

34:38
Charlie Van Derven
Elswig.com okay, I was putting your first name in there too. Mark Elswig, thank you so much for being my guest on RIA Collective today. Thank you for taking time out of your day for listening to another episode of RIA Collective. Of course, we don't have huge backing, so if this is good for you and, somebody will benefit from Mark's knowledge, please, by all means passing to them and make sure you subscribe and leave a review on your favorite listening platform and come back and check in often because we're pushing out new episodes every week. Mark Elswick, thank you so much. 

35:11
Mark Elzweig
Great. Thank you. Great to see. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. 

35:14
Charlie Van Derven
Love having you. Thanks for being here. 

35:16
Mark Elzweig
It was fun. It was a lot of fun.